davidbhayes's Forum Posts

I've been really enjoying some of the Tara Brach ones on Insight Timer (a phone app). Not sure it's easy to link to them though...

Hi,
This was about a specific issue where their browser couldn't play the media files. Can you tell us a little more about how it's not working. What're you expecting to happen? What is happening? What web browser are using? On what device?
Thanks,
David

I've never heard of With Each and Every Breath, but it looks really cool. The page there is an embarrassment of riches I'd never seen before. Thanks for the recommendation!
I've read, and can second the recommendation of, Mindfulness in Plain English. Easy, approachable, and free!

It's a bit of bold and generic question. If everyone meditated regularly (and understood by meditation something approximating what I mean by meditation) then yes, I think the world would slowly change, it'd be a much softer place. But that's a lot of ifs...

There's a big gap between knowing the best thing to do in a given situation and doing it; meditation is the best way I know to close that gap.

It's not something that necessary makes it difficult for me — I just keep going, because I'm quite committed — but I sometimes suffer from a "rote" — dry, just going through the motion, uninspired — period (days or weeks) of meditation. When those things come up, I find it useful to more intentionally seek out inspiring books, dharma talks, etc than I usually do. It doesn't always work, but it's the best way I've found to deal with it.

I've never tried it with much determination, but I think there's some good advice I've heard about triggering actions you might be interested in. What I mean by "triggering actions" is that you'll pick a specific event — the phone rings, you flip a light switch, you walk through a doorway, etc — and try to just be mindful around that behavior. Use that specific action as your check-in point about mindfulness.
It sounds like you use a walk for that, but if you'd like to be more mindful throughout the day this might be helpful. Actually putting this down has made me think that I really should try to find one for me. One thing that came attached to the advice is that it's good if it's something you do regularly, but not so commonly that you'll be hitting this check-in point every five minutes. Too much and you'll just get overwhelmed. Every hour or so is what I'm thinking I'll try to find for me.

The biggest lesson I feel like I've learned is that there is always space and a fundamental "okay-ness" available. It's down there at the base, waiting to be known. Your mind can run itself into ragged circles of crazy thoughts of desire or discomfort or rage, but that root calm and comfort is still down there, just hard to find. And don't mistake me, it can be VERY hard to find. But it never goes away, and it can't be taken from us.
I wrote a bit of an essay about this, but basically for me it comes back to this: "You're just a guy sitting in a room." I can always go totally crazy, angry, happy, whatever, but I'm just a guy sitting in a room (or a woman standing outside, whatever). I'm a person having experiences, but those experiences don't take away from the the simple wonder, peace, and beauty of being a living human being.
It's such a simple idea, but it's so hard to drop all our stories and find it down there. But you can do it, if you have the patience to "wait until the mud has settled and the mind is clear." And I think that's the most important thing I've learned from meditation.

I'd take that and go a bit further: the point isn't to have no thoughts or never find that your mind has wandered off. It's to return when that's happened.

I don't know that my path is all that common: I actually (finally) started meditating because I was acutely aware of the distance between my aspirations about how I'd act in the world, and how I was able to actually act in the world. What is mean is that I didn't want to be the kind of person who yelled at people, or said mean things, etc, but I was painfully aware that I was doing those things.
Essentially, I heard from somewhere some reference to the idea that meditation could help close that gap from the time you encounter a situation and the time when you're able to respond wisely to that situation. I was finding that that period for me was way too long; I'd have already acted before I could find a wise response.
Certainly, in the very short term, noting a difference in your behavior around things like that is hard. I think there's a quote where someone asked the (present) Dalai Lama about progress and he said something like "check in every five years." But even though it's only been about three since I started meditating in earnest I have definitely seen a change. It's not that I never feel a bit out of control or say something I regret, but it's less frequent. And it's far more frequent that I realize "I don't want to say that, I'd regret it later." and find a more skillful thing to say.

Uh... we probably have different understandings of the word "regular." But I really want to know what you mean by "regular elephant."

I do both.
Especially when I'm feeling tired, I find it useful to have one more stop before I can accidentally be asleep. But I also find having the eyes open — sort of unfocused in the middle distance — has another aspect of being a little more energetic for me (and making it easier to touch into things like restlessness) than when my eyes are closed.
I do like the aspect of having your eyes closed where it's much easier to be still and peaceful. For me that my eyes can't quite so easily go seeking an interesting thing to rest upon (and then think about...) can be really helpful.

I think your point about meditative vs meditation is really interesting. I've been on both sides of that debate in my life, and I'm mostly closer to the position you express now. I don't deny you can be mindful anywhere, and you can get better at mindfulness doing anything.
But I appeal to a sports analogy to explain the difference. You can get better at a sport by just participating in active games. Playing basketball or soccer with your friends or in a competitive environment. But for concentrated improvement, you've got to take a break from that kind of environment and really make sure you master all the fundamentals. Deliberate practice is one of the keys to really excelling at something. And in the sport of mindfulness, practicing your ability to head a ball or master your shooting form is done by finding a rather quiet place and being still there, holding your awareness carefully.

I think I'd probably really struggle with that silence aspect too. I'm generally a pretty quiet and reserved person, but I think a hard barrier of "always refrain from speaking" would be kind of jarring to me as well.

Yah, that's definitely an idea we've considered before, and maybe should think about again.
Basically we have two constraints re: Medivate right now — time and ability.
And the hard thing about Kickstarter, etc is that that they don't really solve either of those problems, and in a manner of thinking might actually make it worse. At a minimum, you've got to put together and promote the campaign, and in many cases you also have the overhead of creating and fulfilling the "prizes" for your backers. Which is to say nothing of the overhead of managing their demands and expectations before and after the campaign. As I do the balance in my head, I think we'd probably end up with a wash on time on the deal, and it'd have no real impact on our ability to deliver. Maybe I'm wrong and we could easily raise enough to pay back the time of the campaign and a lot more. Speaking for myself, I'm not yet completely comfortable with the wager.
Thanks for the thoughts though. And your vote in support of our doing a thing like that definitely moves the needle in my head a bit about the possibility of bringing that back into our possible roadmaps. We really appreciate your support!

Sorry, Chuckg. I'm just now seeing this.
Fred and I definitely agree 100% that a phone app would really make Medivate much more useful to people. It's basically at the top of our "would love to build" list, but we're a bit strapped for time and expertise. For now Medivate doesn't put food on the table, so we're not able to do much more than the bare minimum to keep it going. We definitely don't intend to abandon the project, and will almost certainly have a smartphone app someday. But unfortunately it probably won't be within 12 months of now.

Wow. That's not a thing I really ever thought would be an effect, but I totally believe it. Thanks for sharing!

• My desire to always be able to take the action I'll later know is right. This one is huge for me. Mindfulness practice has really clicked for me because I've seen in my life so many times that I did something at the time that seemed right and then later realized it was wrong. I've heard this gap of when one takes an action to when the wiser action is clear as a "refractory period", but whatever you call the idea the point is that I find that as I practice I'm much better able to ask "What's the wisest response in this situation?" before I respond, rather than hours later. And that difference, being seen, feels so powerful and useful that it keeps me practicing.
• Medivate helps, but in a way I doubt it does for other users. Because I'm a cofounder of the site, I feel pretty dedicated to using it, paying attention to it, and using its log to track how I'm doing. I don't think we've got it sticky enough that it has had the same effect for any other users as well as it does for me, unfortunately.
• Dharma talks. I've never sought or found a local sangha, but I regularly listen to podcasts, and listening to some specific podcasts of dharma talks is hugely supportive to me. The diversity of perspectives I get from Audio Dharma and Dharma Seed really keeps me interested, and regularly drops a new idea into my practice and life that makes me remember why I'm doing the practice and what my goals are.

I'm quite certain there are other supportive influences, but those immediately came to mind. 

I'm much more patient with other people. The primary thing I feel like meditation has given me is space. Space between my thoughts and feelings and my vision of what's really happening. This space gives me time to be more deliberate and careful when speaking, and as a result I'm much less prone to shouting in anger or other things I feel I used to do pretty regularly.

I've been sitting with this question for a few days. It's brought clarity on a few different things.
The most concrete is that a lot of the time when I'm looking for distraction — which I thought was caused by "boredom" — is actually a drive for comfort. I want to adjust my posture to be more comfortable, but I also want a place for my mind to land to keep it comfortably active. I'd not noticed the latter part — grabbing the phone and checking email is typically a seek for the "comfort" of the distraction of email.
The other more broad point I'd not realized was how much the label I give to a bundle of things allows me to safely avoid needing to investigate and be more attentive. This is a thing I feel a bit like I should have known, but it surprised me. The power of this or any question — that at first I was like "what a dumb simple question..." — is that it makes you see more clearly and accurately all that's really there.

Huh. I'll have to hold that question for a bit. Seems like a good one.
To answer immediately, my mind seems to eagerly seek anything novel and not the object (typically my meditation object is the breath) to attach to a be able to play with. As though what it is experiencing isn't sufficient. I'm reading that as boredom.

Lately I've been feeling a bit dull and bored. I should really go do some research & advice-seeking on it. Anyone have anything to recommend?

Well for me, meditation is all about routines. Every morning I wake up, have a bowl of cereal, and then sit down to meditate. I don't think about it.
Every day around noon I go for a walk. To fit more time to meditate into my day, I take that as an opportunity to pause everything and stay with my breath as I walk. 

Shakuhachi, this really resonates with my experiences with posture. The more traditional postures, with little in the way of comfort, seem to have a logic other than people have lacked furniture.
At times, for lack of energy or will, I lie down to meditate. And that has exactly the risk I think you've found in a chair, only far worse. Especially because I'm allowing myself to do it because "oh but I'm tired" it seems like I'm virtually certain to fall asleep in that posture if I try to do it for long.
I have a cushion that I've used in the past. It's relatively good and comfortable, but if I sit on it too much — in every posture I've tried — I end up with weird chronic issues with my knee. (Basically, I get "water on the knee", a collection of unknown fluid at the front of my knee.) Lotus and half-lotus seem worse for my knees than Burmese, but even when I've done a Burmese-like posture (I can't say how close I do it the book version) I have the issue.
So what I do a bit more now is a cheap kneeling chair I bought to use for my desk a few years ago but never really took to. It looks rather like what the Wikipedia page for the category describes as "low-cost kneeling chair". For me its big advantage relative to a more traditional backed chair is that I can't really relax and lean on anything, as is the case with most cushion setups, but I never seem to have knee issues from the posture.

It's interesting. I think that eating, hydrating, and other bodily functions are obviously more important. I don't know about bathing — I think because of its value to others I'd put it before meditation. And I suppose, practically, I also put my job — making money, helping team mates, etc — above meditation. The way in which it contributes to the others — the ability to eat, etc — is the logic there, though I'm not sure it's strictly that simple.
But I would rank meditation as more important to me than exercise, though not by a large margin. I really enjoying finding time to read, and write various things, but those are certainly less important to me than meditation. As are watching TV or movies, listening to music, etc.
Spending time with family and friends is an interesting and hard one for me. Practically I do my best to not have to make that specific trade-off, but if I did I can't say confidently which way I'd decide. I know that I'm better with my family and friends — better able to enjoy their company, better able to deal with potentially hard situations, etc — when I meditate. But I also know that to many of them, in many situations, my bodily presence is more important than my psychological one, and they mostly gloss over the difference. Practically I'd probably have to weigh the importance of my presence to others in a particular situation against how much value I perceive I would get from meditating for that time.

I'll check it out. Thanks!

For me, like exercise, shaving, teeth brushing, and trimming fingernail, meditation is a habit. And I think it's best that way. 
Why? Because I believe pretty strongly that "you are what you repeatedly do." Stated differently, I think that habits matter more than most anything else. They're so automatic we don't think about them much, but they really shape everything. It nearly goes without saying, but someone in the habit of watching TV all day isn't likely to write the next great novel. Someone who makes a habit of writing everyday just might.
So by having a meditation "habit" I do it regularly. For me anything that I think I should do that doesn't reach the level of "yep I regularly do that and feel weird when I don't" is something i just don't reliably do. It's something I vaguely feel obligated to but never quite accomplish.
I know some people worry about losing some spiritual quality if they make or view meditation as a routine activity. I think there's some merit to that. But I get so much more value out regularly making a point of meditating (especially when there's a lot of resistance and struggle in it) that I wouldn't want it to be more will-based. I just know I'd delay and dally so I never really did it.

It's an interesting question. I do think it's similar and different in a number of ways. Start with similar:

• I really feel like there's a clear benefit from all of the things I'm counting. And a lot like exercise, or good oral hygiene, or eating well, it doesn't necessarily feel beneficial in every session or period, but over the long term it's more evident.
• For all of them, the benefit come more from returning repeatedly and contintually working than from a single good run or single good session on the cushion or single good writing session.
• For all of them, I didn't really all come together for me until I routinized it and made it so regular I felt weird *not* doing it. Until that point, each time to do it would require a larger effort than I could regularly muster.
• They all can feel a bit like a grind at times, and are hugely helped by the way in which I trust in the long term goals and results to get through the times it's not fun and I have to grit my teeth and just do it.

Ways they're different?

• They obviously have different goals and results. While all things I'd describe as "helpful practices" have the very simple goal of "a better me", body health and mental health are related but still pretty distinct in my mind. Lots of people have one but not the other.
• The kind of discipline and attention that's needed to go running when I'm not really feeling it is at least a bit different from the kind that's needed to sit when I'm not really feeling it. It's similar, but "bearing down" to meditate is a trickier and finer line for me then for exercise. Because meditation is so mental and balance is so embedded as and necessary for the goal, it requires a lighter touch.

That's really interesting. Do they both keep you from sitting down to meditate? Is one stronger than the other?
For me it seems like I sit down to meditate and then I get quite restless and "distraction-seeking" (without something to do my brain seems to desperately seek things to find interesting, and I don't have much insight into that flow) but it doesn't occur to me before I sit down as a reason not to sit down. 
Busyness isn't an issue for me really, because I've so built meditation time into my schedule and routines, but I could see it a being a big obstacle to actually getting to the cushion. For me, I know (because I've done it a lot with other things in my life) that if I vaguely intend to do something at an indeterminate time — I'll shave later, I'll floss next time I brush my teeth, I'll exercise this afternoon — and feel overwhelmingly busy, I just don't even make the effort. With meditation, that would be me not even getting to the cushion.

That's really interesting! My spine and the muscles around it never really enter my attention. I've been trying yoga a little lately, and it's really made me aware of how many things like this in my body I don't regularly have much awareness of.

It depends a lot on how I'm feeling about the session. Sometimes it really has seemed to fly by. Generally I'd say it feels about the same speed as in the rest of my life. I'd say that's because my mind is at about the same level of engagement as when I'm in the rest of my life, for better or worse. This does make me think I don't pay munch attention to my perception of time.

There are so many ways to count progress! On one hand, I feel sometimes like I've even worse than I ever was — more quick to shift focus to novel and interesting phenomena, more prone to seek them out, more likely to float away into some diffuse state of inattention — but I suspect more than a little that this is simply a result of being better at observing it. That behaviors that escaped my attention in the past are coming into focus.
In my daily life — which for me definitely should be scored here — I regularly notice times when I'm pretty sure a past version of me would be quite anxious or angry when I find myself largely unmoved. It's been a while since I found myself suddenly worked up in one state or another, and much more common that I see that I could get worked up in a situation and choose not to.
For me, it's obviously a good idea to look for encouraging signs that result from meditation. Knowing and understanding the benefits of this (or any) behavior is to me one of the best motivations to keep doing it. In noticing the changes in my daily life that I'm pretty sure are related to working with mindfulness in meditation, I'm much more sure and committed to keeping up the practice. 
The one caveat I would make about looking for progress though, is that you must be careful when doing it not to expect too much too soon. It took me many months of sitting regularly before I felt confident of any change having happened. It seems hard to have much awareness of ourselves over time. It seems like a hard thing for us to track, our memories are so malleable, and our memories of mental phenomenon seem like they may be especially so.
I recalling hear an exchange attributed to the (current) Dalai Lama. Someone asked when they would notice changes as a result of regular meditation. He said to "check in" in five years. Then they might notice something. Sustaining the practice if you're not able to be patient with the possibility for changes seems to me it would be very hard. Understanding meditation's slow effectiveness seems essential to having the faith and confidence to keep going and making a point of doing the practice.

I think you really hit it on the head with the point that it's vague. It's good instruction if you're already really sure of what each word in it means in the context of meditation, but doesn't really work for someone just coming to it. They'd maybe understand it, but only to the level of "so I can't move?" The idea of thoughts and attention and patience and awareness are all not expressed.
I have this idea — it's really becoming a bit on an old saw for me — that everything that's really important to know can be (and is) packed into simple common-sense phrases that everyone knows (a cliche) and just looks past. I wrote an essay (which I don't love) about it a few years ago, but I think this phrase is a potent example of what I meant. For someone who's already familiar and comfortable with the idea of meditation, "be here now" may be a sufficient and potent reminder. But for most people most of the time, the idea just blows past them as something too simple to be worth considering.

I typically sit on a kneeling chair or meditation cushion in my room. It's convenient and easy.
Sometimes, especially as it's getting warmer outside here, I'll try to find a nice place outside and either meditate seated on a bench or while walking. I mostly do this for variety.

I certainly sometimes feel like I'm dragging myself onto the cushion. I have a strong commitment to sit everyday, and I take it quite seriously, so that means I'm not always eager to meditate when it comes up.
For me, I think it's really valuable to get in the habit of meditating, as that means you both do it regularly and you don't have to "surprise" yourself with it when you occasionally think you should do it. That may just be how it works for me, though. Once I get over that initial hurdle of "yep, you're doing it" though, any sense of obligation melts and I remember why I endeavor to do it regularly.

What a wealth of interesting and novel information. Thanks so much for sharing!
The thing that most jumped out at me was the Oxherding Pictures, which I'd never heard of. They're a really cool model of the progression of practice. For those who've never seen them, I'll save you some Googling: Wikipedia and a great set of pictures and simple explanations.
I'd heard of Soto (Shu) before, but never really understood how it differed. I really like your explanation of what the school and practice means to you; feel like I understand it at least a little more clearly now. Your experience in Japan sound awesome too, glad to hear about them. Thanks again; I'm really completely blown away by your post.

Become aware of the awareness behind the thought, and the winds will calm.

I really like that, though I feel compelled to interject that it's easier to say than to do.
But I definitely think that biggest and most noticeable thing that's changed for me as I've meditated more is the realization that there is really something I have access to that contains all of the thoughts.  It's not a thought itself, but it's a space in which they come. I use the word "spacious" a lot to explain the change, and when I try to explain it in a visual metaphor it really is a feels like a literal space around and distance from my thoughts.
The extent to which I used to tie myself in knots chasing down the "right thought" is something I don't miss. You don't, as they say, have to believe everything you think.

Hi Joe, thanks for introducing yourself. I really couldn't agree more with your statement "We are all the same we just dont see it with the hustle and bussel of our lives." So true.
To tell you a bit about me, I'm a cofounder here at Medivate, and a web developer in my work life. I live in Colorado, which is essentially right in the middle of the United States. I've only been meditating a few years — I guess about three now, time flies — but I really value the extent to which it helps me stay aware and "awake" in my day to day life.
For probably more than a decade I had some vague sense of the basic truth you outline — that we're all just the same — and wished I lived in a way that better fit that model of love and how I wanted to interact with people and be interacted with. It took me a while to come around to it, but meditation is the best (and maybe) only tool I know that's made it easier for me to be present, attentive, skillful, and kind in my daily life.

I really like the autopilot vs driving analogy, that's not a way I'd ever thought about it, but feels accurate to my experience too. 
I'm not sure I'm reading your correctly, but the idea that your energy is driving down these tangents resonates with me too. For me — I mostly do mindfulness of breath meditation — I find it's a kind of frustrating experience to just wake up to "where was I?" over and over. When I was just starting especially, that would make me get up and walk away. It still happens a lot for me, but I'm getting better and better about recognizing that this falling down a tangent and returning is the whole point of the exercise.
For me it's specifically this consistent little exercise of mental wandering and returning that has lead to all the positive no-longer-on-autopilot changes you call out. It's shocking in its effectiveness and simplicity. Thanks so much for sharing!

Huh! I've never heard of that technique before, but I think it's pretty cool. A rather similar thing I use pretty regularly is to count — say to 10 and back with each breath, or something like that. I find counting is really nice as a way to settle and collect, I may have to try the "I - am" next time though.

Huh. Maybe: Present, pleasant, and spacious. Spacious is the word I always come back to, though certainly there are many time when it's more accurate to say things like "lost in thought" or "frustrated".

This may seem a bit silly, but one question I always have in the back of my mind is: "What am I doing wrong?"

Actually the whole thing is freely available online. I'm pretty sure even with the authors consent. The first Google result is the one I've seen linked most, though the results point to a few other sites offering it as well.

I mostly just do mindfulness/breath meditation, which is nice.
I've sometimes tried to do a metta practice much like this page describes. That was a nice change of pace, but I never really felt like I complete understood it or felt at ease doing it. Well that's probably a good reason for me to try it a few more times, I have to say that I haven't. Maybe I'll make a point of trying it again soon.

I struggle to find any supplies I think are required. There are helpful things — a seat that you can keep alert on at the top of my mind — but even that doesn't feel "essential". Your body, your breath, and the ability to pay attention seems to be all of it.

I feel like it moves and changes somewhat throughout a session, but I most frequently find my attention centered at the nostrils. I find it rests there typically because it's the place where for me the sensation of the breath — which is almost always my "object" of meditation — is most strongly felt.

Interesting has so many different connotations. One sessions that sticks in my mind was the Dallas airport in the middle of an unexpected layover because of bad weather. Not especially scenic or special, but memorable and uncommon for me.

Huh. No real thoughts, other than: Don't rest it on things if you don't want to fall asleep!
Generally I've never noticed many posture issues around the head. The way that feels most natural to me — mostly upright with the chin tucked slightly in — seems to be optimal.

I like the point about priorities. It seems to me that we all have the same amount of time, and when we say "I don't have time for that" we generally do mean something closer "I have other activities I enjoy more than that", or "I have other activities that I feel a stronger obligation to", or even "I have other activities that I (feel I) have to do".

That's great to hear! Hope the little trip didn't interfere too much with your ability to keep it up. Sound's like you're really managing it deftly.

I don't know that I can really generalize about my meditative awareness, because it seems to me to be so many thing. For more than a week I've had this question in the back of my head, and every time I think I have an answer I realize it's only a temporary answer reflecting the most recent session.
I have sessions that feel quite jumpy, attention flitting from thing to thing. I have sessions where that basic dynamic being at work feels really grating and there's an agitated quality to the awareness as a result. In other "flitty" session there's a calm sense around the flitty-ness, a sort of patient and encompassing quality. Sometimes my mind on a whole seems pretty calm, and there's a strong but pleasant neutral sense to it all.

Thats sound really interesting. I'm especially curious about the rhythm. Does it seem related to a physical rhythm in your body — pulse or breath are obvious candidates — or is it something else?
Either way I'm very glad your meditation practice is pleasant for you. Thanks for sharing!

I think you're right. Mindfulness is getting applied in all these new place because it's applicable in all these places. I literally can't think of problem in my life that mindfulness hasn't or doesn't have the potential to play a role in making better. A very good point.

I mostly agree. I do think there may be some way in which these hybrids would degrade or change the concept in the way it's understood in the wider world. That's the biggest risk I can foresee, but I know of no specific examples of that problem.

Yah, I definitely think that you're right about the power of the chain. There's a lot more commitment for me in knowing that I've basically been meditating every day for over a year than there would be if I thought I'd just meditated sometimes.
And I find the disruption of traveling problematic as well. I find that two big things help me with traveling: having a plan and allowing for flexibility. They're almost two sides of the same coin, but by having a plan I mean that I have a rough idea of what it'll be like where I'm staying, and when and how I'll find time to fit sitting in in that situation. I like to brainstorm more times and places than I need, so that at least one theorized times can fall through but I can still make it work.
 
By flexibility, I mean that sometimes you really don't get to sit down on your zafu in a quiet corner and do it like you do at home. You've got to kind of roll with the punches there, and if that means you're meditating while riding the bus, so be it. If that means sitting on a bench in the mall while your traveling companions are shopping, that's OK too.

Meditation neither could nor should ever take over the world like nuclear war or other extremely affecting and quick changes one can imagine.
That being said, I think it has the power to change the world in some significant (if small) ways. But I think there's also a sort of inherent aggregation in this conversations that's worth addressing: meditation travels with many religions, but is not the same thing as any of those religions. It's conceivable that Jainism or Hinduism or Buddhism takes over the world and brings meditation along with it, but that doesn't seem like it speaks specifically to meditation's role.
Those provisos in place I think meditation has the potential to change the world on a small scale. I've found that meditation really heightens sensitivity: I'm much more aware of a how things feel. It's kind of what Louis CK is saying about kids saying "You're fat" and experiencing the return of that, but much more so. I'm more sensitive to the impact on me of my thoughts, the impact of other things I'd never previously noticed on my thoughts, and the implications of my actions in a way I never was before.
So I think to the extent I'd expect meditation to change the world, it's through a process of individuals experiencing that kind of change in their own life and sharing that with the small world over which they have influence. To the extent meditation is important to living in a sensitive and caring way, individuals sharing and spreading that energy with people will, in small but tangible ways, change the world.
And there's a real potential for a positive domino-effect to come from that process: a caring person sensitive to the value of meditation may well create a cascade of people looking to be more caring and interested in a practicing meditation. I think slowly but surely, the story of mindfulness/Buddhism/meditation coming to the Western world is that story, and it's early days.

I always struggle with this kind of question. In many situations, I can't think of any change at all that's occurred; they're all quite subtle. It requires me thinking really hard about what my life was like at a day-to-day level a while ago to start to get a sense of what's changed since I started to meditate.
I think the most valuable change for me is that I'm more skeptical of my first reaction to things. This could be stated similarly as an increase in the space I have around my thoughts and emotions. But essentially, I've learned that most emotions and thoughts aren't really meaningful, and don't really arise for a wise reason. For the most part a feeling is just a set of sensations in the body, a thought just a collection of firings of old prejudices.
What this all means, in practice, is that I'm a lot less quick to get angry, or defensive, than I would in the past. It's not all that long ago that someone suggesting that X or Y was a problem would set me back on my heels declaring that it's better the way it is. Now I, at least, pause for a second and measure my gut reaction with a small willingness to consider that this first reaction, which I may indeed share, isn't necessarily trustworthy. This also makes me much less likely to start yelling when I'm angry, though that does still happen from time to time.

Thanks for the resources, Kyle. I'll have to look at them a little closer when I get time. 
I have the same basic sense of you. Meditation studied too closely probably becomes a not-too-helpful head trip.
And I'm more comfortable trawling the internet for resources than busting into a specific center for a specific kind of practice I know little about. That said, I think there's a lot of merit into being the kind of person who just does that. It's bold, and you almost certainly learn the reality of that type or practice in that place quite quickly.
Anyway, thanks for sharing!

I'm separating out the chain a bit, but yes a form for feedback is definitely possible. I know that at some point in the past we had the plan and it just kind of fell away. You're hardly the only person who uses their web browser for email and who thus doesn't get good results from mailto: links like the one we're using there.
There are some complicating factors with respect to making that into a form, but I think it's a good idea and it's definitely back onto the stack of changes we should make.

Yah, we're hoping to really make Medivate into exactly that. It's kind of gotten caught behind other things for the the recent past, unfortunately, but we're really shooting for exactly what you describe: something that helps people track their practice and be more mindful throughout their life.
With respect to being consistent: this is something I have *a lot* of thoughts and opinions about. I don't know if you're looking for any advice, but here are some thoughts I'm feeling like typing up right now:
> It has been hugely helpful for me building positive habits to add a new thing onto a habit that I've already established. Do you always brush your teeth, eat breakfast, or shower at a similar time? Can you move some minor things around to make a 10 or 20 or 30 minute block to meditate around one of those?
> I definitely think that "before bed" is hard. Your energy is typically low, which generally also means your willpower — ability to make yourself do the right thing rather than the easy thing — is also low. And when you do sit down, you may just fall asleep anyway. It's not impossible to work, but it's kind of working twice as hard for the reason you describe.
> With respect to starting to build a habit, no change is too small. Do it even when you don't feel like it, even if you only do it for a minute rather than the 30 you wish you were. Even at that before bed time when you're really tired, it's a powerful thing to talk yourself into three minutes on the cushion rather than to call it a night. Obviously those three minutes have two big advantages: once you're down you may just decide you can do the thirty, and (if not that) doing it everyday for three minutes is (unexpectedly, pleasantly) closer to thirty everyday than thirty every once in a while is.
I don't know if any of those thoughts are helpful. If they aren't, it's not gonna worry me.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I'm really glad you're participating in these (nascent) forums.

If you don't mind my asking, are there specific reasons you're interested in mediation? That's a great place to start if you're looking for somewhere to get more information.
For me, I really came into it as an idea because Buddhism as a philosophy (not trying to start any fights) was appealing to me. Thus in a series of fortunate coincidences, I ended up listening to some Buddhist podcasts — I listen to lots of podcasts — that are very regularly giving me interesting ideas and thoughts about meditation. 
I can't really begin to guess what brought you to it but I'd love to help you look for or find resources if that'd be helpful. You could reply, message in Medivate (it's the envelope at the top), or email me at david@medivate.com.

A tree strump, that's one I've never tried.
I think it varies a lot across people and cushions, but for me buying a real actual meditation cushion that had properties it needed was a big help with respect to back strain and other discomfort. I do understand the hesitation to dive into one though: they aren't cheap and if what you has working there's really no reason.
Thanks for sharing!

Thanks, Kyle. We definitely appreciate the feedback.
It's good to hear that this site played some role, however small, in helping you give meditation another shot. I definitely understand being too busy to feel like you have time for it. I think your goal of consistency is really the key to a lot of success, whether in meditation or otherwise. Once you establish meditation, or any other habit, as a thing you always do  — rather than just a thing you do when you can — it become so much easier. 
PS: The feedback link is bringing up Outlook because it's your default mail client. The feedback link is just an email.

It's hard for me to separate out one single part of my experience. I've been meditating for about two years now, and things have changed a lot in that time, but it's very hard to say with confidence the bounds of meditation's role in the changes.
I think what's most clear in my mind is that meditation has given me more space around my thoughts, and greater room to question them. This means that I've a better chance of noticing things like impatience and anger before they strike into action. So I think the concrete change it makes sense to talk about is that I've been made much more patient and aware of the true reality of a situation. I imagine I'd find myself randomly having scared or angered someone more if I wasn't exposed to meditation.

We all have value, we all have something to offer, we have all been damaged in some way or another.

That is exceptionally beautiful and well-stated. Thanks for sharing.

Obviously "tried" can be a bit of a fuzzy thing. But one "attempt" really caught in my mind.
I'd put together a little stack of somewhat firm pillow to sit on, and I got comfortable. And I sat there. Breath in, breath out. "Huh, I wonder what that thing over there is? …" Return. Breath in, breath out. Gone. … I managed to stay with this cycle for I'd guess five minutes, though I wasn't making any effort to track time or get to some benchmark, and then I thought "I suck at this and it's no fun." And I got up and I left.
That basic story had probably played out at least five different times in slightly different forms for the previous five years. On my own, without any guideline or social pressure, I just kind of "bounced off" meditation because it's kind of hard and frustrating. I'd do it with a group, or a friend, or alone, once and then forget the whole idea. (Most of my life I've been the kind of person who does things that they're naturally good at and runs from almost all other activities. I've gotten better at it, but that's the logic I'm describing here.)
Anyway, this time I'd recognized the cycle and really had some resolve that I'd come back. I left the stack of pillows in the disused corner of a room, and I earnestly intended to try this for at least three times before I'd give up. And so I came back. And it was still really hard and frustrating for me — the disappointment that I couldn't do this "simple" thing of staying with my breathing got to me — but I'd heard enough about the good of meditation, and I'd listened to enough dharma talks that I wasn't under the false illusion that I was the only one this activity could be difficult for.
So I came back the next day. And it was a bit easier, but I still didn't manage five minutes. And then I forgot, and came back the day after. And after a while on intending to do it regularly I hit a consistent five minutes every day. And I thought "Ten minutes would be an eternity, but I should try." And I've pretty much been going like that ever since.

Yah, I generally would say my experience has been the same, Patrick. Fear isn't something I really remember experiencing on the cushion. But there's been a lot of anxiety. The anxiety I've felt is really more around shock about what my mind is actually like. I actually talk about it as frustration in this post, but it's a similar thing.
I think it's reasonable to say that anxiety is just a form of fear, and the more I think about that the more accurate it feels. For me the anxiety or fear that, as I started to peel back the layers, I saw that I wasn't really who I thought I was. A lot of frustration came out of that, but staying with it and listening to dharma talks slowly made it clear that it wasn't really a problem, I was just seeing clearly what I'd previously misunderstood.

I think my goal, to the extent I'd define one for the whole thing, is to keep doing it. There's some appeal to me in the idea of "attain enlightenment" or similar, but I don't know what such a thing would mean, and I'm even less certain holding it as a goal would help.

The biggest change I'd make is to have started sooner. There are a number of small mistakes—lapses, unnecessary distractions, added energy that made practice harder than it should be—but sitting for more years than I have feels like the most valuable change I could make.

You know, I'd never heard the term "mudras" before. Very interesting to learn about them.
Do you recommend them because they're comfortable to use, or for spiritual reasons?

The single biggest change, I'd say, is awareness. Quite simply, I feel much more aware of all the thoughts, emotions, and physical feelings that are going on in my body at a given time.
That strengthened awareness gives me a sense of space, which allows for the time to work with the experience before reacting to it, which has been such a nice thing. It's hardly the case that I never find myself wondering "why did I just do that?", but it's happening a lot less than it used to.

I have not. Not really for any hard reason, but I've never been in a position where I thought it made sense to push someone toward doing it.

Sorry I managed to miss your post earlier. (I'm glad my Weekly Update had it or I might have missed it entirely. Some good user feedback in that itself, I suppose.)
I think this is actually really useful and accurate. We've been slowly realizing how useful and central to the experience of what Medivate should be that aspect of community is. We've thought for a while that the group meditation logs were a really useful and untapped aspect of the site that we didn't really know how to make more valuable. I think you're spot on that bringing that stuff into the app would go a long way to making that better.
And I really appreciate that you took the time to add to the thread when you didn't get a response. It's hard to understate the value of this feedback and I feel a little bad I'd not seen it sooner. Thanks for your thoughts.

I think this page may be useful for defining how I actually put me legs in relation to named postures.
Essentially, when I started I mostly sat with my legs crossed in a posture a bit like half lotus. I've seen it referred to as "Quarter Lotus", but it's essentially one leg over the other and just a little in (rather than foot fully on top). It's reasonably comfortable, but not that great. I'd find after long sessions I'd have some strange stretched feeling in my "outer ankle" (for lack of a better term) that wouldn't go away over the course of the day. I found a similar problem when I tried just crossing my legs in the way roughly like what I grew up knowing as "Indian style"--both feet under your legs.
So mostly, now, I do Burmese style, where my legs are roughly parallel on the floor in front and don't overlap at all. It ends up being a bit wider than most other styles, but I've yet to notice any strange lingering effects on my legs from it.

That's an interesting idea. What kind of thing are you thinking?
I think we---Fred and I---have typically used the comments as a space to be more descriptive, but I don't think that's a very strong case for it being that way. I'd love to hear more about what you're thinking.

I don't know that there's really a specific thing that's easy to pin down. Generally, it's some combination of restlessness and distraction (which seem pretty thoroughly related) which come up for me. Whether it manifests as grabbing to play with my phone, fidgeting to get more comfortable, or something else, it always seems related to some desire for a greater sense of comfort through some means of "escape".

Thanks so much for sharing.
I'd never considered the idea that your meditation space could be engaged with in a way that it encouraged you to practice. Now that you've said it I can think of similar examples from other areas of life---I feel like I've heard people talk about leaving their running shoes by the door, for example---but I'd never thought of it with respect to helping with regular meditation.
I also really like the "Whatever comes up" phrase. Isn't that what life is, a continuous experience of "whatever comes up"?
And I don't know that it matters to you one bit, but I feel like there's a lot to justify your relationship to the space. People have always and rightfully venerated sacred spaces---those that make them feel safe, a part of something greater, more connected---and I think of the place I meditate as such a place.

I definitely agree about the value of a space that's all set to go. (Mine's also just a part of my bedroom.) Preparing your practice area, even if it only takes a few seconds can sometimes be enough to prevent you from doing it.
I think the idea of acknowledging your space when you don't sit is really interesting. Is it mostly the sacred images you acknowledge, or the space itself? Do you think that helps keep you honest, or more likely to maintain your practice? I'd be interested to hear more about that if there's anything you'd be willing to share.

Slow to reply, but thanks a lot for sharing.
I do think I understand what you mean about being better able to focus on the breath, whenever I do lie down the sensation of the breath was different in a very interesting way.
I've actually been meditating for almost two years now. We started Medivate a little after that, though not as a result. Meditation's been really interesting, and certainly a fair number of highs and lows. Medivate's helpful for me too, but I don't think we've yet made it the case that's is sufficient to keep people motivated. That's the much harder goal.
I typically do mindfulness of breath meditation. I've tried a few other forms once in a while, but that's what I do 99% of the time. It's still teaching me things and challenging me on a regular basis.

That's interesting.
I've tried lying down, but usually for the *terrible* reason that I don't feel I have enough energy to meditate. As you may expect from the prior sentence, the result is usually either that I do in fact fall asleep, or else drift into this low-energy, low-awareness state that definitely isn't quite sleep, but is also definitely not meditation.
I'd be curious to hear more about how it works for you, and how other postures feel too energetic.

What made me start meditating was the perception of a gap. I'd learned about Buddhist philosophy, and done a fair amount of reading related to that, and I really liked all that I heard. I thought, "It'd be pretty great to be able to live like this." But when it came down to it, I frequently found myself acting in ways that didn't accord with that desire. I especially remember anger as something I felt (and found myself acting on) completely out of proportion to what made sense.
What I came to realize, and this is where some prodding Fred offered did help, was the meditation was the best possible way to close that gap between how I wanted to move through the world and how I actually did. By increasing my awareness for "practice" periods on the cushion, I find I have more awareness off of it. I find it's much less common that I suddenly go "why am I so angry right now?" and much more common that I sense "I may feel angry soon." I think this distance between when you can usefully use knowledge of an emotion and when you actually have knowledge of an emotion is crucial. Closing that gap gives me a feeling of "space" around my thoughts and emotions that is so so valuable. That's the reason I keep meditating.

I also like to sit early in the morning, though my reason's more prosaic. I like sitting early because that way I don't have to fight to find the time to do it through the rest of the day.

One of the things I really struggled with when I started was back pain, and for a long time it seemed like nothing would help. But one day I "discovered" that where I put my hands made a *huge* difference and I felt a bit dumb. 
What I had been doing sort of just dropping my hands in front or beside me, and that really tended to meant they dangled unsupported near my knees or sides. What I discovered if that if I held them in toward my belly button or even on the upper half of the inner-thigh the dull constant back pain was much less noticeable and problematic.

I have "gomden" which is a firm foam rectangular block. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it still works for me. The concept behind it is that it's more firm and elevated then a something like "zafu", so you can sit in a more western posture. But for me it seems to go too far in the firm and elevated direction. I've been thinking I should get just get a traditional buckwheat zafu and see how I like it. But I haven't done it yet.

This is one of those things that's deceptively simple. I have this pet idea that really simple ideas (or cliches) that we think we understand but don't fully grasp are *the* most profound. I wrote a little essay about it a while ago, but that whole area's somewhat off-topic.
About expecting things in meditation: when I started out I remember thinking that I really got meditation. And I remember being hugely frustrated with what it felt like to sit quietly alone in a room by myself. I'd get up and run away after five minutes because it was hard to just be still. I had things to do, thoughts to think, etc. I think a lot of that early frustration really was caused by my covert expectations that I should be kind of good at it, and that it should be a certain way. It wasn't any way and the difference between that and what I expected was hard. Being OK with that gap was really the first, and possibly most important, thing I've learned from meditation.

This is, at the most basic level, the reason I started meditating. I'd feel that I knew the value of being kind, but was regularly disappointed by my (lack of) ability to be so.
For me, the experience of being more kind is really rooted in something that feels more concrete to me, which is a sense of space around my thoughts and emotions. I found myself more able to see and say "angry feelings are rising" and thus respond to the sense that I may be unkind soon. Before, I might randomly find myself shouting without any warning or mental space to correct for the fact that feelings of anger were rising up.

First and foremost, I'm of the opinion that just keeping some log of "did or didn't meditate today" is a really valuable thing for keeping yourself honest and doing it regularly. I think everything else Medivate does--track time, let you give it a numerical "feeling" value, say things about it publicly and privately--are just unnecessary but nice bonuses. But if you don't like any of them, I'd not worry to much about not filling them in.
For me, the "how it felt" field is essentially about the balance of positive, neutral, and negative thoughts and feelings during the session. Generally, if a session feels like a struggle throughout, like a chore, etc I'll give it a lower score. And if it feels really pleasant--I'm enjoying my time sitting there and finding the sensations of (for example) the breath quite pleasant, I'll give a higher score. If the session is a mix of those two, or just lacking much of either, I'll generally give it a 5.
For comments, I just put things that occur to me to say about it. Generally they're notes related to the number I gave for "how it felt". Just what kind of things were distracting, what kind of thoughts came up, what sensations were dominant. (And with respect to the public/private divide: anything I wouldn't mind people seeing goes in the public comment.)
All of this bonus data can be interesting to just look back over. (Medivate's tools for this aren't as robust as we might like right now, but they're a start.) There are graphs that utilize the time, but also one of the "how it felt" field which makes it easy for me to identify times when meditation was harder or easier and puzzle at why. There's a basic word-analysis that points out to you words you've used frequently in recent meditation log entries and their occurence in past entries. There's also a basic search engine to find out when you were talking about "back pain" or "fidgetting" and what you said.

I started looking at people's potential instead of their shortcomings.

I really like that way of describing the distinction. It rings true to me, and I've never heard it before.

It's from Mindfulness in Plain English, which you can actually (awesomely) get free in digital form. This quote is from in Chapter 7, about two-thirds of the way through. Here's the paragraph in full:

Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels barreling pell-mell down the hill, utterly out of control and hopeless. No problem. You are not crazier than you were yesterday. It has always been this way, and you just never noticed. You are also no crazier than everybody else around you. The only real difference is that you have confronted the situation; they have not. So they still feel relatively comfortable. That does not mean that they are better off. Ignorance may be bliss, but it does not lead to liberation. So don't let this realization unsettle you. It is a milestone actually, a sigh of real progress. The very fact that you have looked at the problem straight in the eye means that you are on your way up and out of it.

I may get long-winded, so I'll start with a quote from someone smart that kind of gets at my point:

"Somewhere in this process, you will come face to face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. ... No problem. You are not crazier than you were yesterday." —Bhante Gunaratana

The thing I most remember of starting out with meditation was frustration. I would get so frustrated that I couldn't just sit there all "Zen-like and peaceful". I found my mind to be very turbulent and judgemental, and finding that made me more frustrated and turbulent. It was in many ways a frightening and confusing thing to experience, and it did, to a real extent, force me to think seriously about many of the traits I'd previous taken for granted as under my control.
The hardest and greatest thing about meditation—especially by yourself silent on a cushion—is the way in which you're unable to distract yourself. You can't just go back to fantasizing about the future because you've made a commitment to the process and to yourself you're here to be with your breath (or other object of meditation). I remember being quite cheered, too, while I was having these struggles by coming across this line that rang true from Pema Chodron:

What's encouraging about meditation is that even if we shut down, we can no longer shut down in ignorance. We see very clearly that we're closing off. That in itself begins to illuminate the darkness of ignorance.

What was so hard for me about meditating, what caused me to run from the cushion after five or ten minutes, was the way that I couldn't escape the reality of my mental situation. Things I'd been able to not know about myself I had to know now. Things I didn't like to sit with had to be sat with. It was hard and frustrating, but it was also the best thing I think I've ever done.

Two quotes you reminded me of, both tangential:

• "All things are difficult before they are easy." -Thomas Fuller
• "There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind." -Kurt Vonnegut

They're not directly related, but for me they both have a lot to do with why I started practicing. The second quote--about kindness--was really the motivating goal. And it was the certainty that I needed patience (for myself first, and for others too) to be kind that made me stick with meditation through all the difficulty and frustration I hit starting out.

I struggle to think of a single time or place that I thought "this is because of meditation." I definitely  remember multiple times being surprised by my ability to stay "controlled" in situations when I would previously have started to become quite reactive or angry. It wasn't as though I found myself able to react wisely, but I first perceived some sense of space around my reaction to events that went different than I'd like. In being able to better see my space around the reaction, I was able to start to change it.
This feels tremendously vague, but the very vagueness of this kind of answer is one of things that I think makes it hard to feel confident that your pracitice is worth continuing to dedicate time to. This is why we created the Daily Life portrait so that vague senses over time can add up to quantifiable progress you can see. It's still not everything we'd like it to be, but I think a new meditator taking it regularly would see good progress over time.

The phrase "the bliss of blamelessness" has been stuck in my head for a few months now. I think it's got a lot to do with sila, and I think there's a lot to that idea.
One of the things that finally convinced me to do meditation seriously was that I was beginning to see all the ways that I wasn't really doing those virtuous things in your list. Too late I would realize that what I'd said wasn't kind or helpful and I'd regret it. I, especially starting out, I was enamored with the idea of shrinking that time between regrettable action and realizing it; (with the goal that realizing could come before the action). It's still something I think about and work on. And it's still a strong motivation for meditation for me.
Thanks for sharing, it made me think more about this benefit of meditation that I sometimes lose sight of.

Interesting.
I think your rephrasing makes the "on purpose" bit more forceful that it reads in the original, which may have something to do with why you seem worried by it. In the original "on purpose" is just the coincidental first of the three qualities describing how you pay attention, in your rewriting it's the only adverb describing how you're paying attention. 
How I read it "on purpose" is synonymous with "with intention" and is there primarily to delineate mindfulness from those times that you're coincidently "paying attention in the present moment, non-judgementally" which is certainly something I experienced a few times before I knew anything about the ideas of mindfulness or meditation. That experience is clearly neither meditation nor the kind of intentional mindfulness Kabat-Zinn's talking about, and thus "on purpose" serves a real, useful, and accurate purpose.
(Which is all, by the way, to make no claim about its validity for what you, or any specific tradition, think of as mindfulness, meditation, or worthwhile practice.)

It's not strictly about meditation, but I've always found really resonant this line from Jon Kabat-Zinn:

“Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and non-judgmentally.”

I think it's sane to say that mindfulness meditation is doing that for a set period of time, with the aid of an object like the breath.

I'm not generally a fan of poetry readings, but this one I've watched a lot and can at least recommend it as the best one I found on YouTube when I looked.

Lyrics written out for the lazy:

I believe Jehovah Jireh
I believe there's heaven,
I believe in war
I believe a woman's temple
Gives her the right to choose but baby don't abort
I believe that marriage isn't
Between a man and woman but between love and love
And I believe you when you say that you've lost all faith
But you must believe in something, something, something
You gotta believe in something, something, something
I still believe in man
A wise one asked me why
Cause I just don't believe we're wicked
I know that we sin but I do believe we try
We all try, the girls try, the boys try
Women try, men try, you and I try, try, we all try
I don't believe in time travel
I don't believe our nation's flag is on the moon
I don't believe our lives are simple
And I don't believe they're short, this is interlude
I don't believe my hands are cleanly
Can't believe that you would let me touch your heart
She didn't believe me when I said that I lost my faith
You must believe in something, something, something
You gotta believe in something, something, something
Try to believe (just try)
I do believe I do believe

Taken from Rap Genuis (which does a cool kind of line by line explainer; taught me what Jovah Jireh is).